Red Tape Podcast, Episode 5 – They Took Our Jobs!
Red Tape is the newest R Street podcast about the country’s biggest problems and the surprising ways that governments (and regular people) often get in the way of solving them. It was produced in partnership with Pod People. Listen wherever you find podcasts, including Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and learn more about the podcast here.
Episode description:
What will happen to our jobs when the robots take over? Kelli and Shoshana navigate the world of artificial intelligence and jobs with R Street’s Resident Senior Fellow for Technology and Innovation, Adam Thierer. An expert on AI, he explains why you shouldn’t worry so much about the robots taking your job.
Kelli also speaks with Dr. Christi Smith who explains why a criminal record shouldn’t always prevent you from getting a job. Instead, more states should look at “clean slate” laws that remove barriers to jobs for those with criminal records. Kelli and Christi discuss the importance of giving people second chances and allowing them to become productive members of society.
Episode breakdown:
(0:06:14) The Impact of AI on Jobs
(0:08:45) The Evolution of Technology and Professions
(0:12:26) AI and Quantum Computers Enhance Creativity
(0:16:21) Truckers Union vs. Driverless Trucks
(0:20:26) Retraining in Changing Industries
(0:26:41) Technology, Burnout, and Job Security
(0:36:00) Clean Slate Laws for Convicts
(0:39:27) Jobs for Those With Sealed Records
(0:42:28) Clean Slate
(0:45:31) Clean Slate Reform
Transcript:
Shoshana Weissmann, Co-Host:
Hey Kelli, how’s it going today?
Kelli Pierce, Host:
Oh, hey, show sure it’s going pretty good. I always love when we record the podcast.
Shoshana:
Yes. I love recording the podcast with you.
Kelli:
Oh, wow. That’s so sweet. Thank you.
Shoshana:
Yes, it is sweet. What is today’s episode about?
Kelli:
Well, today’s episode is called The Took Our Jobs. And I’m really excited about this one because I’ll be speaking with R Street’s, Christi Smith, about clean slate laws that get rid of barriers to things like jobs for people with criminal records. But first up is Adam Thierer. And we’ll talk about the biggest elephant in the room. AI and when all the robots are gonna replace us
Shoshana:
Oh that’s just fear mongering Kelli robots won’t take our jobs. Let’s change the subject of discourse. What did you have for lunch today?
Kelli:
It’s only 9:30 in the morning Shosh. Have you already eaten lunch?
Shoshana:
That is not what I intended. I meant what did you have for lunch yesterday?
Kelli:
I don’t remember what I had for lunch yesterday. Also, you sound a little different. Is everything okay?
Shoshana:
But of course, everything is great. How are you today?
Kelli:
Okay, Shosh you already asked me how I’m doing today. Did you inhale a little too much bear spray on your last hike?
Shoshana:
Okay, Kelli, I’m gonna come clean with you. I’m actually not Shoshana. I’m a voice model of Shoshana
Kelli:
An AI generated voice model of Shoshana. Wait, how do you know my name?
Shoshana:
Well, there was this incredible hike in the Wasatch Range that I wanted to go on this week. So our Podcast Producer, Chris built a database of my pre recorded speaking voice. Now he can type out what he wants me to say. And the database will say everything for me.
Kelli:
What? So I’m really just talking to our producer, Chris, who’s typing out these responses from you.
Shoshana:
Yes, it’s win win.
Kelli:
Okay, so much for you loving the days when we record the podcast together. Also, what if I wanted to go on a hike today?
Shoshana:
Oh, don’t worry. He created a voice model for you, too.
*Theme Music In*
Kelli:
Hello, Kelli. It’s me AI Kelli. How’s it going today? Oh, my God. Well, I’m out of here too. You can just do this show on your own today, Chris.
Kelli:
I’m Kelli Pierce, an award winning journalist and digital media associated R Street.
Shoshana:
I’m Shoshana Wiseman, director of digital media and a fellow at R Street.
Kelli:
And this is red tape. Hey, Shosh.
Shoshana:
Hey, Kelli,
Kelli:
is it really you this time?
Shoshana:
I think so. Unless we’re in the simulation. I’m not actually hiking today, although we had you fooled for a minute there, right.
Kelli:
I mean, it did sound a little weird.
*Theme Music Out*
Shoshana:
I mean, I am a little weird. Maybe more than a little. But just to make sure it’s clear for our listeners. This is actually my real speaking voice. But everything you heard before, this really was aI Shana.
Kelli:
I can’t believe our podcast producer who has absolutely zero training in this stuff, was able to create those voice models for both of us
Shoshana:
that really show us how AI is becoming part of our lives in ways that we would never expect.
Kelli:
And I think it’s a good setup for what we’ll be talking about today. Jobs. Because while that model of you sounded pretty good, it wasn’t so good that it could actually replace you as my co host for the show, which I wouldn’t want anyway.
Shoshana:
You sure?
Kelli:
Positive.
Shoshana:
Well, I kind of think when you take enough humanity out of things, when you take out the stuff that makes it unique, or have that personal touch, it sucks.
Kelli:
Yeah, when I was talking to AI, you it wasn’t quite human. Right. So it does still seem like you need that human element. Whenever you are dealing with AI, right? You know, you need someone to sort of sort through all the choices that AI makes, but a lot of people are worried that we’re gonna have robot overlords soon. So I have to put a question to you. Are you ready to hear all about our new robot overlords?
Shoshana:
I for one, welcome our new robot overlords.
Kelli:
That’s wonderful, because we have just the man to talk about it. Adam Thierer, he’s R street’s resident senior fellow for technology and innovation. And he thinks and talks a lot about the coming wave of AI. I know we like to joke about the robots. But the real question is, will they actually take our jobs or make them better?
*Theme Music In*
Shoshana:
Well, I guess you’re talking to the real Adam unless we’ve scripted and made his voice into a robot voice. But assuming it’s the real Adam, here’s Kelli’s conversation with Adam.
*Theme Music Out*
Kelli:
So, Adam, what’s the right way to greet our robot overlords? Is it a queen wave curtsy? I want to make sure I die last and being nice might help.
Adam Theirer, Guest:
The right way to greet our robot overlords is to understand that they’re not overlords, but they’ll just be our friendly companions hopefully, and we would greet them the same we would greet anybody else with a friendly smile, hopefully and maybe even a handshake. That’s very
Kelli:
nice, very into equality here. And I want to start a little bit big picture. We hear this word artificial intelligence all the time. What is artificial intelligence?
Adam:
Yeah, well, artificial All intelligence is a hotly contested phrase. In fact, the General Accounting Office of the US government has noted that it’s a term of contention, and that there is no single universally accepted definition of AI. But rather differing definitions and taxonomies, we can sort of try to simplify it a bit and say that AI involves the exhibition of intelligence by machine. And machine learning refers to the processes by which a computer can train and improve an algorithm or a computer model without step by step human involvement. So that, in a nutshell, is artificial intelligence. But once again, nobody has really come up with a consensus definition of the term.
Kelli:
What are some of the other definitions that are floating out there?
Adam:
There’s very long winded ones that try to get very, very technical, but often they become circular and use the term artificial intelligence when defining artificial intelligence. But really, the more interesting thing is when people ask me like, Well, how do you define just intelligence? Because that’s a really interesting question. We humans have struggled to understand our own intelligence and define it for ever. And now when we talk about artificial forms of intelligence, it presumes that we’ve even come to a consensus on what we mean by human intelligence, and we probably haven’t.
Kelli:
So we don’t know what the definitions are. We’re not quite sure. But it seems like every person has a different perception of it. And regardless of their perception of AI, whether it’s like the singularity or something very different, there does seem to be a lot of concerns around it. And the most basic one I feel like for most people is will it take my job? Is that concern, legitimate, overblown? Or maybe depending on the circumstance?
Adam:
Well, it’s a quite understandable concern. It’s the one that’s been around for the longest period of time with the world of technology and innovation. As soon as machines started to develop and enter into our lives, our workplaces, whatever else, it became a concern for anyone who was doing a job. And so we have famous studies of the Luddites and other people who rebelled against machines. But this anxiety is really timeless. And yet, it’s it’s the kind of thing that when you step back and think about it, every single job that we have in society today is thanks to technological innovation. It in some way, shape or form. It involves the invention of new tools, new systems, new machines to make our lives better, and give us more opportunities than no jobs. And that’s something that I think people consistently forget.
Kelli:
And just to put this in perspective, compare the 1940s to today, are we having the same jobs?
Adam:
No, we’re not. In 2018, there was a report put out by MIT, a blue ribbon commission, called the work of the future, building better jobs in the age of intelligent machines. And they had this amazing statistic that said, in 2018 63% of jobs in new occupation titles had not yet been invented. As of 1940. We did not even have a vocabulary in 1940, to understand 63% of the jobs that exist today. It’s just a totally different world that we’ve invented all these new positions, jobs, skills, professions sectors. And so we often just have an impoverished imagination about the future and what humans will do to make it better. And that’s certainly the case when it comes to jobs.
Kelli:
If 20 years ago, you said this sentence, man, my phone sucks, it doesn’t have any internet, or can’t take pictures. They look at you like you’re insane. But now, we have this technology. And it’s really led to more higher paying jobs. If you really think about it.
Adam:
Yeah, not only higher paying jobs, but in many ways, much better jobs, much, much safer jobs, you know, and in all new opportunities for our economy and for our workforce. I tell the story in my new R Street paper on this issue. I told the story of the field of calculators. And there was a time in the post war period when we had an entire profession of humans called calculators. And these were the men and women who did the hard math for government agencies and for companies and for universities. They did the math in front of a chalkboard or on paper that basically couldn’t be done by a machine. Yeah. And then the 60s came along and so did mainframe computers. And in very short order, we stopped talking about human calculators and started talking about machine calculators, and the profession of calculators was eliminated. Well, that wasn’t the end of the story. The story continued on because those human calculators then had their time and abilities freed up to utilize their creative juices to do far more interesting and important things for society. And those women and those men gave us the personal computing revolution and the internet. They only had the ability and time to free their time to do that, because they got rid of the menial task of doing basic math on a chalkboard or a paper. And so that story has been told again and again and again throughout history and other in other professions. And yet, every time a new technology comes along, we have a panic and say oh my gosh, we’re going to lose this skill. So or this profession, and we might, but we don’t think hard enough about what might be next.
Kelli:
There was this really interesting interview recently with Dr. Michio Kaku, the very famous physicist, and he said, going back to AI, that this will speed up the creation of new drugs that will cure cancer and many diseases because things like AI and quantum computers can run through different combinations, in this case molecules so quickly, and I imagine that’s going to create a lot of jobs for scientists, drug manufacturers, and all down the line.
Adam:
Recently, I served as a commissioner on a blue ribbon commission called the US Chamber of Commerce, AI commission. And we got to go out on field visits. And one of them we did was at the Cleveland Clinic, which is one of America’s most prestigious centers of medical learning and treatment, people from all over the world come there to get treated. And we got to meet with the head of the Cleveland Clinic, Dr. Tom Mihaljevic. And he started his remarks to us with an amazing number. He said that when he was starting out to be a doctor in the 1980s, the overall corpus of medical knowledge, the overall body of medical knowledge out there was doubling he said roughly every seven years, he said today, by contrast, the overall body of medical knowledge is doubling every 77 days. So from seven years of doubling to 77 days of doubling of medical information, our modern world now the only way that our doctors and scientists and nurses are going to be able to take advantage of all that information is through the power of machine learning and artificial intelligence. And that’s exactly what the Cleveland Clinic and many other organizations like the like the Mayo Clinic and others are doing. They’re utilizing machine learning and artificial intelligence to help them in what economists call complex human machine interactions. So basically, they can sit down with a machine and say, feed it all this data, and say you do the hard math and figuring out like, what’s going on here with our patient, or with this virus. And then we’ll figure out together as a human team, how to work with that machine data to come up with a better diagnosis or a better cure. And this is happening every single day at that summit. This is about solving chronic disease, early detection of heart attacks and strokes. It’s about curing cancers, we’ve never been able to cure, this could change everything for society. And that’s just in the field of health. We could talk about this in the field of transportation, and finance, and all sorts of other fields.
Kelli:
Going back to that interview with Dr. Kaku, he pointed out that the battery technology is possibly going to improve exponentially because of things like AI and quantum computers.
Adam:
Yeah, absolutely. If you think about fields, like energy, transportation, so many others, were basically having the ability to do really, really hard complex things at the speed of light now, because of these technologies. And that, again, frees up our minds in many fields, especially not just health, environment, transportation, but many others to basically go and think creatively outside the box, because we don’t have to do those hard things anymore. So you know, this is why think about it more like in terms of AI being our sort of co pilot, or our robotic companion to help us out with those hard things.
Kelli:
And that’s a very interesting point, because it is not taking the place of human creativity, you’re saying it’s adding to it?
Adam:
Absolutely, we are seeing these so called complex human machine interactions at work for the better, and that it’s not machines, completely replacing humans, it’s collaborating alongside them, and aiding them in the task that they’re doing. And when you think about it today, you know, if it’s the case that like AI and robotics was going to eat all the jobs, and some people say, Well, then why isn’t everybody already unemployed? Robotics has been taking over the workplace for many, many decades. But over the last decade, as I pulled out my new AR streetstyle, it’s greatly accelerated. And yet in the firms that have invested the most, like Amazon and others in robotic technologies, they have explosive employment growth. Now that seems counterintuitive to some people. But it really shouldn’t be because human needs and wants and skills are almost infinite. And we just haven’t freed up people’s minds to do new and better different things with their creative juices. And so now, working with machines, we can figure these things out faster and create new and better opportunities for.
Kelli:
That reminds me of one of my favorite films desk set. It’s this 1957 film with Katharine Hepburn and she is a human encyclopedia. And she gets really nervous because all of a sudden, there’s going to be a quote unquote, electronic brain in her office. And it’s those massive computers that take up the entire room, right? That possibly could do her job for her. And at the end of the movie, I know SPOILER ALERT 65 year old plus movie, actually, it ends up growing her department Even in the 50s, that was a very big deal, right? Will the machines replace us? And that movie was showing? No, it’s actually going to enable you to do more. And it just seems like it’s a story that keeps repeating.
Adam:
Yeah, in fact, if you want another good real world example of exactly that playing out in the 1980s, I remember distinctly the concerns about the rise of ATMs, automated tellers that would dispense cash and all the people back then panicking about like, Oh, this is the end of the bank teller profession, there won’t be any more people working in banks or in finance. Well, the reality is, is that we have more bank tellers than ever before. And we don’t call them bank tellers anymore, because they’re not standing behind a piece of giant glass or some steel bars handing out cash with their fingertips. Instead, they are back in an office doing something creative to create new financial instruments, new loan services, new things for consumers. And the machines can just do the menial task of handing out money if you even want paper money anymore, right? Most people don’t. And so the world changed, but not in the way that everybody thought it would be for the worse. I mean, there’s huge employment opportunities in the world of finance today.
Kelli:
So speaking of jobs, are there any other fields where you see AI creating jobs? I know we talked about medicine, tech, energy, anything else on your radar there?
Adam:
Well, there’s a lot of different professions where I think AI can have positive employment effects. And some of them can be counterintuitive. I’ll tell you a funny story. There’s been an effort recently by the Teamsters, which are truck drivers, unionized truck drivers, to stop any sort of driverless car legislation, or any other bill for moving forward at the state level. And they have pushed back so aggressively on this front. And amazingly, in the same week that they came out against a California bill to allow for like driverless trucks on roads on the grounds that it would disrupt their jobs. They put out a press release, talking about the massive shortfall in the United States of truck drivers, we have a chronic shortage of people willing to drive trucks. And I mean, the numbers are staggering. At one point this there’s so many 80,000 shortfall, I can’t even believe these numbers. But the reality is, is that everywhere you go you see ads like we need, we need drivers, we need drivers. And yet here is the truckers union saying we can’t have any of these damn robotic trucks. No way they might take our jobs. So here’s what’s ironic is that I don’t believe when you have driverless trucks, you eliminate all truck drivers, they stopped driving as much, which is a good news story for public safety. But we’ll still need humans to be in the loop there and be running the control systems behind driverless trucks handle logistics handle the handoffs through the human element of like shipping, I’d be willing to bet people that we do not see a massive, you know, shortfall or diminishment of jobs in the field. But we actually see more of a leveling off, maybe maybe even more, who knows, it could be that trucking becomes something totally different, or freight transport becomes something totally different. Every single day in the United States, 6500 people are injured and 100 people die due to traffic fatalities. And 94% of those accidents are attributable to human error. This is government data. 94%. Why? Because humans get the three Ds drunk, drowsy and distracted. And who gets more drunk, drowsy and distracted or mostly distracted than anybody else? Truck drivers. And so that is a chronic public health catastrophe for the United States totaling over 40,000 people who die each year. And the point is, is that like there could be corresponding benefits beyond just like jobs and new economic opportunities, because the safety benefits can be profound, right? So this is why we have to think on a more broad based way about the value of AI and robotics.
Kelli:
I do want to pivot to people’s fears around AI when it comes to jobs, because there might be instances where AI very well replaces some of those jobs and making a career change or having your job drastically changed. That’s really hard, especially later in life. What do you say about that?
Adam:
Well, we have to come up with some good solutions there. And it’s hard, because we’ve tried in the past to come up with solutions for worker displacement in other contexts. But the problem is, all of our attempts to use big government programs to do this have ended fairly miserable. But here’s what we really need to do. We need to find way to tell people like look, you’re going to have to probably be comfortable with the idea that at some point in your life, you will have to find new employment. And this has been happening in our economy for a long time. It’s no longer like set it and forget it with jobs, right. My dad had the same job for 4050 years because he worked in the steel industry until he didn’t was gone. We’ve got to be far more agile, nimble, responsive, and resilient. And one way we can do that is on the fly train. And the best way to do that is in a localized way, with industry, government and community colleges in particular, or other colleges working together to come up with plans and processes and systems to help people find those new skills in real time really, really fast. And that means we’re We’re not going to have grandiose plans, we’re not going to have a 10 year plan for retraining our workforce, we’re going to have a like, five week plan. It’s going to have to be really, really quick. And it’s going to have to involve collaboration. It’s got to get rid of the political nonsense and say, Let’s not make this about politics. And like everything else, let’s make this about, like, people working together, especially at the community level, to retool and retrain, yeah.
Kelli:
I think of coal miners early in 2010s, their jobs were going away. And then you had a lot of people telling them learn to code. And then we’ve been hit in these past few years with a mass of journalists layoffs. And they have been told, Hey, go learn to code go into STEM. And it’s not that easy to just, you know, it’s not like flipping on a light switch, right? It’s not that easy to transition for a lot of people. And so it does seem like in this instance, maybe if something were a business might take the lead to take on somebody and retrain them. What do you think about that?
Adam:
Absolutely. And that’s what’s actually happening. A lot of major employers today are trying to find ways to partner with local governments, university systems, especially community colleges and other places to figure this out in real time. And it’s scary when you have this much uncertainty associated with job loss or job retraining of any sort. I was asked in recent interviews, like do you think your own job will be around another 10 or 15 years? And I said, I don’t know. I think it will, but it will be very, very different. I’ll be relying on AI tools to basically help me do some of the basic things that either I do for myself or a research assistant does for me. So you know, it’s it’s a new, different world. And it’s hard to get used to the speed at which things unfold. But I continue to be very, very bullish on the idea that humans do find ways to be resilient and reinvent themselves again and again. And I think they’re going to do it again.
Kelli:
And it always does seem, this was a point that we brought up in the alternative energy podcast episode that we did that government is playing catch up to business or technology. And what sorts of policies should we be looking at, so that everyone wins in this arena?
Adam:
Yeah. So there’s a name for what you just described with the the fact that policies always trying to keep up with or keep pace with technology, it’s called the pacing problem. And for many, many years now, but especially over the past decade, we have witnessed technological change the pace of it grow, at least linearly, and if not, literally, then exponentially. And meanwhile, government and policy change is incremental, at best, right? You know, these days in Washington, there is no change. It’s just called massive dysfunctional ism. So in that world, it’s going to be difficult to make policy period, it just is really hard for Congress to be responsive at the pace of technological change, especially in a field like this. So we’re going to have to come up with other solutions, we’re going to have to think more creatively outside the box experiment with lots of things. I think one of the most exciting thing that’s happening in the field of regulatory policy more generally, is the idea of sandboxing. The idea of creative little zones of freedom, where we say, yeah, we’ve got a lot of rules over here and say, the FDA or the FAA or these other agencies, why not relax them within a certain within certain confines for a certain period of time to see what happens, right. I think that’s a sort of created what’s sometimes called entrepreneurial administration, by government that is really desperately needed in the age of AI, we have to be willing to think more creatively about how to solve these kinds of problems. I think the other thing we need to really point out to policymakers is what not to do. There are some real red flags here. When Bill de Blasio was mayor of New York and then went to run for Democratic President did, he put forth the idea of a federal automation commission that would review any job losses, and like any employer that wanted to use any sort of like automation or robotics, that’s crazy. I mean, that’s basically saying, You’ve got to have a permission slip before you can use any sort of automation or AI in your workplace that’s just going to destroy innovation and states. Equally misguided would be the idea of robot taxes, the idea that any sort of automation in your workplace or robotics, you get a hefty tax to somehow pay for some sort of other program. Well, that’s just going to be a massive discouragement for any sort of productivity enhancements in a workplace that involve AI algorithmic systems, or robotics. We don’t want that either. So it’s very, very important that we not derail the benefits of this technological revolution. But instead find better, more pragmatic solutions in a bottom up way.
Kelli:
I do want to end with what the future looks like with AI becoming more a part of our lives. Can you put it into a chat GPT and tell me
Adam:
you know what, there’s been a lot of people who talk and really excited In terms about in a pessimistic way about the future, but there’s also some people who talk in extreme ways in an optimistic way, and think that we’re all going to be living some sort of like crazy existence like something out of the Jetsons cartoon or something, you know, in a few years, the reality is, is that technological change is coming on this front. And it’s going to be really exciting. It’s going to be slowly creeping into our lives in small but important ways. If we were having this conversation, 15 years ago, we wouldn’t have had smartphones at our disposal, we would have had really crude flip phones, but once we got them, we’ve seen incremental improvements in like, what’s in our phones every day. And they’re really amazing. They really do help us in incredible ways.
*Transition Music In*
But it hasn’t completely changed everything in our in our lives. We humans are resilient species. And we have to stop the extreme talk around AI and robots, whether it’s jobs or safety, existential risk, whatever. People just talk in crazy terms about this, people are losing their minds about this issue. But the reality is, is that we will find a way to muddle through we’ll find a way to make these tools machines were forced the way we have all the other tools and machines we’ve created before.
Shoshana:
So I’m really glad that you talked about Michio Kaku, as a kid, I used to watch his stuff on quantum physics, and I’m really interested in quantum physics. And also the desks that reference because the movie itself gets to the really good point around AI and that it’s a human helper.
*Transition Music Out*
Kelli:
Yeah, absolutely. Now, first of all, you do not have to be ashamed of your love of Dr. Kaku, he is amazing. He is absolutely amazing.
Shoshana:
I love him so much.
Kelli:
However, I want to address though that for now, it can be scary for some people out there. Some of them, they don’t have secure jobs. Maybe they have a bad boss. So when they see that technology is coming, they go, Oh my God, you know, am I on the chopping block next,
Shoshana:
you know, tech can be such a helper and it can stop burnout. And that’s the way I tend to think about it, especially with like automation and AI that it helps prevent burnout. And then in the, you know, the business sector, like we’re in the nonprofit sector, but in the business sector, I feel like there’s this misguided thing of like, Oh, they’re just going to replace people one by one by robots. But if you want to grow, you need people to manage those robots, too. Like Microsoft Excel didn’t replace people it made their jobs easier and let them work with data way easier.
Kelli:
Well, you know, with all this talk of robots, you can forget that people face barriers to employment now. And that leads to our next conversation. After the break. I’ll talk with Dr. Christi Smith about something called Clean Slate laws. Red tape from R Street. We’ll be right back.
*Mid Roll*
Shoshana:
Welcome back to red tape from our street,
Kelli:
you know shows earlier in this episode, we talked about how technology might take our jobs. Probably not, but could. But there are laws and rules and regulations that are taking people’s jobs now and it’s just not fair.
Shoshana:
Yeah. And this is one of my favorite areas to work in just stopping government from stopping people from working. I love you know, reentry, making sure that people can get jobs when they get out of prison. I love occupational licensing reform, like all that stuff, I think is just so underrated and so important.
Kelli:
It absolutely is. And it’s a great setup, because you like to think that in America, once you’ve done the time done your penance, your life will be restored. But that’s not true for millions of people with a criminal record.
Shoshana:
Yeah, there’s so many more barriers they have to face, you know, for housing and you know, zoning sort of regulations there plus where they can work jobs they’re allowed to do. All the stuff we’re kind of talking about here isn’t part of their prison sentence. This is just bonus stuff added on after.
Kelli:
And that’s why I really wanted to speak with Dr. Christi Smith. She’s R Street’s senior fellow for criminal justice and civil liberties. And we’re going to talk about something called Clean Slate laws, what they are, and how they can help.
*Theme Music In*
Shoshana:
This in particular is really interesting to me, and it involves some stuff that you talked about with Adam.
Kelli:
Yeah, and I think what’s really important for people to do going into this interview, set aside your preconceptions of criminal justice reform fears you might have about your neighborhoods, because what you see in the news isn’t always right. But if we get clean slate laws, right, everyone’s safer. Now, here’s my interview with Christi Smith.
*Theme Music Out*
Kelli:
So Christi, public safety concerns are very real, and we’re gonna get to them in a little bit. But first, what are we talking about when we talk about clean slate laws? What do they do?
Christi Smith, Guest:
So clean slate laws automatically seal the old arrest and conviction records of individuals based on what they were arrested or convicted of? And also based on the timeline with which they’ve established that they can remain law abiding.
Kelli:
There’s also something called petition based sealing as well.
Christi:
Yeah, so petition based sealing or the notion that somebody’s record should not haunt them for the rest of their lives is not a new concept. There are only four jurisdictions across the country that don’t have some sort of process for people to apply to have an old record sealed. Unfortunately, fewer than 10% of eligible people actually pursue that option for a variety of reasons. And so the Clean Slate laws are designed to bridge the gap between somebody who’s eligible to have their record sealed, but who has not pursued that opportunity in the petition based sealing realm.
Kelli:
Surprising to me, how many Americans have a criminal record that would qualify under clean slate or even petition based sealing?
Christi:
Yeah, so there are an estimated 70 to 100 million adult Americans with a criminal record that acts as a permanent barrier to their ability to establish basic life necessities like stable housing, stable and suitable employment. In fact, one in three Americans has a record that hinders those abilities. So automated Record Sealing is really critical in restoring the opportunities for these individuals so that they can remain law abiding and not have to resort to crime in order to support themselves.
Kelli:
What are some of the misdemeanors that are eligible under clean slate laws,
Christi:
Retail thefts would be eligible minor drug offenses, marijuana offenses and cannabis offenses tend to be more closely tied to clean slate. Even in the states that have not passed broad Clean Slate legislation. They’re really focused on marijuana offenses, low level drug offenses, shoplifting, retail theft, and things like that.
Kelli:
Now, do we have any data on how it’s going with Clean Slate laws in states like Pennsylvania, that have them because I’m sure people are pretty interested in how automatic expungement is helping people with those criminal records really fully get back into society
Christi:
In Pennsylvania in particular, we know that 40 million cases have been sealed that benefit 1.2 million of the nearly 3 million individuals who have a criminal record in Pennsylvania, starting with the cases with arrests that didn’t lead to conviction summary convictions, misdemeanor convictions. And they found that 52 times as many misdemeanors have been sealed by automated processes in Pennsylvania, compared to the petition based processes that were in existence from 2016 until 2020, when the law fully went into place.
Kelli:
That’s interesting. I have to ask, were there any stories that you know, of people who have been impacted by clean slate or petition based Record Sealing that really caught your eye?
Christi:
So I think the first story that I would point out is that the Clean Slate initiative was originally started by Sheena Mead, who was an individual who was arrested in Florida, she had six children, she had written a check to Walmart for approximately $86. The check bounced it was it was a bad check. She was charged with bad checks, was arrested in front of her children, she was taken to jail. Fortunately, she was able to get bailed out. But that record continued to haunt her even after she paid the money back and completed all of the court requirements. Records like that prohibit her from volunteering and her children’s school chaperoning on a field trip. Beyond being able to obtain employment and housing. You know, your life is really impacted in every way by a small, either mistake, or an indiscretion that was made many years ago, under very different circumstances, when you have places that don’t have clean slate laws.
Kelli:
It seems like once someone has served her time, you have a social structure that kind of makes it hard to live her life like the example you just gave, almost like they’re taking her job or taking her volunteer opportunities. Is that an accurate description? Or is there some more nuance there?
Christi:
I would go beyond that and saying that they’re taking her freedom. Individuals may not have their right to vote restored, they experienced difficulty in getting regular transportation. You know, the idea that you’ve done the crime and you’ve done the time is a notion that’s completely untrue for people with arrest records or conviction records, because with technology, they’re so publicly available, that they punish people in perpetuity and really set them up for failure.
Kelli:
My my brain is breaking a little bit right now along with my heart. But I do have a question, though, are people who are convicted of violent offenses eligible for these clean slate or even petition based Record Sealing.
Christi:
Typically know individuals that are convicted of sex offenses that require a sex offender registry individuals that are convicted of violent assault individuals that are convicted of domestic violence and individuals that are convicted of acts of treason or anything that would be threat to security are ineligible for Record Sealing.
Kelli:
I know, though that you might take a little bit different view of this. Are there cases where maybe you think someone’s record should be sealed, even though they were convicted of a violent crime?
Christi:
I do. I work with an individual on a variety of initiatives in Pennsylvania, on criminal justice reform who was convicted of a homicide in Alabama, he and his brother were victims of sexual abuse. They sought every conceivable way to discontinue that abuse, to report the abuse to to have the abuse stop. And all of their efforts were unsuccessful, or they were very young, 19 and 20 years old, they did take the abusers life, they were ultimately freed. The case was now pardon several years ago, which is inconceivable in Alabama that they were released, but also that their case was pardoned, meeting fully forgiven, given the circumstances of the case, the individual has been out for more than a decade, and is no threat to anybody. So threat to the community, some individuals for very specific circumstances, see only that means of resolving an issue. And I do think that those cases warrant special attention and consideration.
Kelli:
Absolutely. I mean, you look at the word murder, and all of a sudden, you as a person normally go, Oh my God, but then you see the circumstances and you go, Okay, well, maybe we need to rethink this and not paint everybody with a broad brush and just take away their freedom for something that was a mistake or even understandable in certain circumstances.
Christi:
Sure. And I would point out that individuals who have served a substantial amount of time for murder actually have some of the lowest recidivism rates compared to the individuals that are eligible for Clean Slate automated Record Sealing are low level drug offenders are the ones that continue to cycle through the criminal justice system, compared to other individuals with more serious offenses that are significantly less likely like 1% recidivism rate, compared to the disproportionately high numbers of individuals suffering from substance abuse, mental health issues, poverty issues, that continue to come back to the attention of the criminal justice system,
Kelli:
I want to kind of focus in a little bit on, you know, those people who are arrested quite a bit for drug offenses, and similar sorts of infractions. And talk about the benefits of Clean Slate laws, especially in those circumstances. First off, it seems like for me, it’s important for people who have been released from jail, to get a job and get a place to live.
Christi:
Absolutely. At the end of the day, we all have to put a roof over our head, we have to put food on the table. Many people have dependents that they need to support. And so opening up the access for these individuals who have been able to address whatever it was that contributed to their criminality before, but they’ve been able to desist from crime, we need to restore those options for them so that they are able to secure basic life necessities.
Kelli:
If they don’t, that means they could go back to that life of crime, right just to make rent or get food.
Christi:
Yeah, well, not only based on survival, but also when they’ve done their time. And their time continues in perpetuity. They lack respect for the criminal justice system. And so not only may they feel compelled to commit crime because of survival, but they may no longer desire to remain law abiding, because the system no longer makes sense.
Kelli:
That makes a lot of sense. And it also makes sense to me that you need to give someone a job or something to do. So they have a sense of purpose. And that in turn is ultimately good for public safety.
Christi:
One of the most compelling stories I’ve heard about clean slate legislation is in individuals that are really elderly, they’ve maintained not only law abiding life, but some sort of stability. And when they were asked why they wanted to pursue automated Record Sealing at this late stage of their life, they said it was about dignity, your development of social capital, that things that you don’t want to jeopardize like a good job, like a good home, like a good family, you are more likely to hold on to those things and develop an identity that is socially conforming. By virtue of Clean Slate legislation, it gives you something that you don’t want to lose. We’ve seen that in individuals that have had their record sealed either through Petitioner clean slate, and that not only are they 22% more likely to find gainful employment, but their earning capacity is more. So it’s not just a job. A job is important, but it’s got to be a job that is suitable to their financial needs. And it’s a job that they don’t want to lose.
Kelli:
Are there protections there for those employers who want to take a chance on the people who’ve been released as part of the public safety carve outs as well?
Christi:
Much of the legislation shields employers from liability shouldn’t and Employee do something that the employer could not have anticipated because they did not have access to that record. There are also a number of major organizations that are highly invested in hiring individuals with criminal records, including JP Morgan Chase, Walmart, Verizon, you know, the list of corporations is really growing, respecting that individuals under these criteria are really deserving of a second chance,
Kelli:
I want to go back to this idea of safety that we talked about a little bit at the top, which is, I don’t think it’s wrong for people to be concerned about criminal justice reform measures when you see states or cities doing it wrong, and then crime going up after and just for myself, I know, I have a spare bedroom in my house. And I also have a toddler, I’d be concerned about renting that room out to someone with a record. How do you inspire confidence in people like me for Clean Slate legislation? With everything that’s been going on?
Christi:
I’d point out that I do have two young children, they are six and eight. And so much of what I work on is done through the mindset, not only of public safety in general, but what would I consider to be reasonable for my own circumstances? So I appreciate that question. But what we’ve seen from the research is that individuals who have maintained the ability to be law abiding for these long periods of time, I mean, there are some states that don’t even allow eligibility until 10 years after they finish their sentence, which means they’ve often survived 15 or 20 years, including that supervision, they’re actually less likely than somebody in the general population to commit crime, again, because they appreciate that new chance that they have. Yeah, and
Kelli:
I think where this conversation sometimes goes off the rails when we think about just ourselves and our own family safety, and all that is that we’re not asking people to open up their homes to everybody, we’re just asking people to give the freedom to others who might not have an issue with someone who had a past offense, giving them a house or a job. I think freedom is a way to solve some of these issues that are related to criminal justice in this country, right?
Christi:
And there are still occupational licensing issues that would also shield outside of clean slate, you know, there are individuals by virtue of their conviction that simply would never be allowed to work in a daycare, would never allow to be working in a school or things like that. But I think where we’ve seen the most critical need for opening up employment opportunities has been over the past four years with the pandemic, all of the jobs that we were looking for people to fill as essential workers, those are jobs that would be available to individuals to fill. And we have historic labor shortages, in restaurant, hospitality, labor, distribution, manufacturing, these are resources that all of us as a general community, are in need of, and we have people that are willing and capable to do the job and who would probably do it very well. But by virtue of their old conviction or an arrest that didn’t result in conviction, I mean, we’re punishing people that didn’t even technically violate the law. We’re barring them from those opportunities.
Kelli:
Yeah, absolutely. And it just seems so unfair to people, not only the employers, but also the employees. Because when you think about it, I mean, once someone has either served their time, or let’s say they were found not guilty, or someone else was arrested for the crime, you know, they need some place to go, they need a job, they need a house, they need opportunities, and we have laws in place that are, it seems misguided, and getting in the way of letting people flourish, we do.
Christi:
And that’s why clean slate is really important because it does open up those opportunities so that individuals can rent an apartment or they can obtain a loan to buy a house, they are no more threat to the general community than anybody who has not been arrested or convicted. So why are we not letting them fully participate in our society, contribute to our economy and keep our communities safer?
Kelli:
I have to ask, lastly, what’s the way forward on clean slate because a lot of these tough on crime policies really haven’t been effective. They’ve been very detrimental to people. So what’s the way forward when we’re talking about clean slate laws and even petition based ceilings? So the tough on crime laws I just want to point out are what got us at this situation?
Christi:
That’s what’s responsible for one in three Americans having a criminal record that acts as a barrier. And so to rectify that, we look at the federal government to set the standard or to send the message that clean slate legislation is important, and that other states should adopt it. Clean Slate at the federal level would be impactful but not nearly as much as the state level because that’s where the majority of individuals are processed through our criminal justice systems. So I think the the pathway forward is really thoughtful state by state process that needs to be undertaken, and then an appropriate timeline for implementation, so that you don’t just say, Let’s pass the law and start wiping away records, because that’s going to be deemed a failure. You know, this is a really thorough, thoughtful analysis of who in your state you feel would be eligible, under what criteria? How long do you want them to have to remain law abiding, before they’re eligible? And then making sure you have the infrastructure to be able to pull this off?
Kelli:
So Christi, at the end of the day, what’s the bottom line? What should our listeners take away from this conversation?
Christi:
Clean slate is one of the least controversial types of reform, you know, it’s a very small portion of the offending population at this point, that is eligible, again, the people that have been arrested but not convicted, summary offenses, misdemeanor, even low level felonies, but they typically restricted at one felony only.
*Theme Music In*
Christi:
So those are the hardened criminals and the threats to the community, that people tend to fear Clean Slate has bipartisan support, it has bicameral support, it’s advanced quickly in the States, considering it’s only been five years, and we’ve got 11 states that have some form of automated Record Sealing. And we’ve got the federal legislation. So this is one of those areas, that is not a hard to sell to the general population, and 70% of the population supports it.
*Theme Music Out*
Shoshana:
I really like the idea of making sure that we’re not just locking up people and throwing away the key, because that’s just not how justice works. Most people who are incarcerated in prison and jails, they get out, we really need to make sure that they become productive members of society, how do we get them back on their feet? And make sure that we’re letting them live their lives? Because if not, then why are we releasing them.
Kelli:
And I also liked how Christi pointed out that we are not requiring people to invite those with a criminal record, for whatever reason into their homes. But there are folks out there who don’t mind giving people second chances jobs housing, the government shouldn’t get in the way of that.
Shoshana:
Yeah. And when you have these good moral character laws, that basically you can deny a license to someone because you don’t like their character, which, what does that even mean, that’s not even really a legal term, you just stop them from living their lives and put them on a path to go back to prison and create crime or be poor at the very least. And that’s just, it doesn’t make any sense. In California for years, you could be a firefighter in prison making almost no money like pennies, literally pennies. But when you got out, you weren’t even allowed to become a firefighter, even though you had just done that self while in prison. And that’s one of those big angles to that, I think is an important part of this, that the prison to back into life pipeline needs to be tailored, like you need to make sure that you’re training people for things, they’re able to do that you’re spending money wisely, spending their time wisely not raising their hopes and dashing them for no reason. I’m not even sure how many people were aware that prison was training these people to do things that they couldn’t do when they got out. But thankfully, it’s become a bigger focus. So stuff like that starting to be reformed, thank God because, you know, I think people are starting to wake up, you know, regardless of where you are in the political spectrum of, you can’t be putting all these resources into training and jobs and then leave people high and dry.
Kelli:
That’s not a good policy. But it’s also about like articulating that correctly as well. On this topic, I also think about South Park, because in R Street, all roads lead back to South Park, and it thought about the Turker jerbs episode.
South Park Soundbite:
They took our jobs!
*Crowd screams in agreement*
Kelli:
You know, it deals with this school wrestling coach, who is losing his job to this WWE style company. So it shows kind of how dynamic the market is, like Adam pointed out earlier, but also the barriers people face like Christi talked about, that really need to go away so that people can flourish.
Shoshana:
Yeah, I never thought about that South Park episode showing how dynamic the market is that what like when you lose your job, sometimes there’s something else that’s well suited for you right there. But also that barriers to jobs matter, too.
*Theme Music In*
Kelli:
We’d like to say freedom is the answer here. But South Park also helps us light the way we’ll show show we’ve made it to the end of the episode and I’m exhausted. Why don’t we just let AI finish the rest of it.
Shoshana:
If we have the robots, we might as well use them AI Kelli, take it away.
Kelli:
On the next episode of red tape from R Street, we’ll be fighting fake news. I’ll be speaking with R Streets Matt Germer about our election misinformation as well as Stacey McKenna on the overdose crisis. And the kinds of misinformation surrounding that issue.
Shoshana:
Sounds juicy. I kind of feel like using our AI bot voices to conclude this episode is a form of misinformation.
Kelli:
I disagree. We have been very transparent that this is not really us doing this conclusion Shoshana, embrace the bots.
Shoshana:
I will have the real Shoshana listen to this episode and we’ll have her get back to you on that. See you on the next episode Kelli.
Kelli:
Yes, I am looking forward to it until then Shoshana.
Kelli:
Red tape is produced by R Street in partnership with Pod People.
Shoshana:
To learn more about the work we’re doing at R Street, follow us on LinkedIn, and on Twitter and our Twitter is at RSI.
Kelli:
And for more resources and information on the topics we explore today, you can check out our rstreet.org
Shoshana:
Also, if you’ve enjoyed listening to today’s episode, the best thing you can do is share red tape with a friend or an enemy
Kelli:
and if you’re an overachiever, please leave a glowing review and rate us on Apple podcast Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really does help us introduce the show to new listeners.
Shoshana:
I’m Shoshana Weissmann.
Kelli:
I’m Kelli Pierce.
Shoshana:
Thanks for listening.
*Theme Music Out*
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